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Welcome to the Soprano discussion page


Constructive suggestions and discussion welcome! The contents of this page are for ongoing discussions. If you want to start a new discussion feel free to do so at the bottom of the page. For past discussions please see the archives.

Including a list of musical roles


I invite everyone to join this discussion on the voice type talk page. Past consensus has been to not include a list of such roles but perhaps this topic should be re-adressed. This topic involves all voice types as there has been a strong attempt to try and make each voice type page similar in content and format.Nrswanson (talk) 22:33, 9 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This page needs to have a musical list jsut liek the mezzo-soprano and contralto pages do. —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 01:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sfogato Soprano?


I noticed that this section was added but I removed it as there were no references given and I had never heard the term before described in that way. It is my understanding that the Sfogato Soprano is a type of coloratura with even higher notes than what is usual for a coloratura. The music dictionary just says "A very high soprano". It says nothing about lower extension. Also, if Callas was a Sfogato Soprano than so was Sutherland who had an even larger range than Callas.Nrswanson (talk) 00:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Article needs a spinto soprano link


...because the youtube link (Leontyne Price in the title role of Tosca) is dead. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 14:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No it isn't. I just pulled it up. The link works just fine.Nrswanson (talk) 18:37, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes now the link works. I am delighted. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Coloratura as vocal property?!


The article refers to a certain type of voice as "having almost no coloratura" or something like that. Now as I understand, coloratura as originally defined is actually a compositional technique, involving a rapid, florid vocal line; coloratura passages can be (and have been) sung by singers of all vocal ranges and timbres, even basses. By extension, the word has come to refer to a certain class of soprano singers for whom the singing of such music is easiest, but even among these singers there is as much variety of vocal timbre as among any others. I submit that using this term to denote a property of a voice is vague to the point of meaninglessness, and I would like to see the passage rephrased and clarified. (talk) 01:35, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term "coloratura facility" within vocal music refers to the voice's ability to sing dextrous (a.k.a coloratura) vocal passages. This is common practice within the opera world. Heavier voices tend to not be able to sing coloratura passages well and the vocal literature reflects that. Of course a soubrette is a lighter voice. In this case, Stark (the author) is pointing out that soubrette roles are not written with extensive coloratura passages, which is true.Nrswanson (talk) 01:44, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sporano men


Is soprano regarded only as a female voice?
How about Leo Sayer and the Bee-Gees? Thanks (talk) 10:47, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The term "male soprano" is a somewhat controvercial term with some vocal pedagogists rejecting it outright and others embracing it. The issue is actually addressed on the countertenor article. The term countertenor is the name most frequently used in the opera world for classifying men who can sing in the soprano vocal range.Nrswanson (talk) 22:55, 26 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How about Davina Pons ? Yes (s)he's funny but it's a serious question. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 23:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey it would be nice if you give a soundbite for this


a sample o sound —Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 11:17, 16 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

High extreme


Article sais: "In rare cases, some coloratura roles go as high as G6 or A6 such as Mozart's concert aria Popoli di Tessaglia or the role of Europa in Antonio Salieri's Europa riconosciuta."

Both mentioned examples are G6, but there isn't any example for A6. I've noticed G#6 in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSNwU1SsqBk, but the point about A6 remains unproved as of now. --Dlougach (talk) 13:48, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, since there has been no reply, I've just changed that part in the article to make it verifiable. --Dlougach (talk) 13:18, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Voice types


I take issue with the way some voice types have been described in this article and elsewhere in Wikpedia. For instance, a lyric soprano is "a warm voice with a bright, full timbre, which can be heard over a big orchestra", while a dramatic soprano "has a powerful, rich, emotive voice that can sing over a full orchestra". This is all arbitrary. Voices are flexible and versatile. There are sopranos that can sing different types of roles (e.g. lyric and dramatic soprano roles.) There are no voice types as such. Only operatic roles. Also, there is no such thing as a Wagnerian soprano. Did Wagnerian sopranos exist before Wagner? This has to be made clear, because it is a source of unending confusion amongst musicophiles. Finally, where did the idea that a lyric soprano or a soubrette cannot sing over a full orchestra come from? It's arbitrary. There are sopranos whose voice is more suited to the soprano lirico repertoire, yet whose voices are big. It is not accidental that most professional singers do not accept this classification. Amadeus webern (talk) 11:33, 24 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Voice classification is not an exact science and many writers on the topic express different opinions. The current content in the article is a reflection of the references currently used. That does not of course mean that other opinions can not be expressed either. I would note that you seem to be confusing lyric sopranos with spinto sopranos according to classification outlines in many English language references. Many authors state that a true lyric soprano could never tackle a dramatic role, and vice versa. Those singers who bridge the two repertoires would be considered neither lyric nor dramatic but spinto singers. That said, there are voices which defy classification, and productions which have cast lyric singers in dramatic roles but as a trade off have used microphones or cut the number of instumentalists to accomodate the singer. Remember, also, that voice classification in the English speaking world is inconsistant, often merging ideas from the French, German, and Italian schools in indiscriminate fashion. As a result, it is really difficult to provide a clear and succinct outline of classification as opinions and practices will differ.
As for Wagnerian sopranos, I agree that the term really shouldn't be separated from "dramatic soprano" as it currently is. The term "Wagnerian Singer (insert voice type)" came about largely because Wagnerian operas require much larger orchestras than what is typically called for in opera. As a result, some singers who could perform dramatic roles like Amelia and Leonore (and nowadays many Strauss roles) with the typically sized orchestra were unable to successfully project over the larger orchestra. This led to a clear division in repertoire choices among dramatic singers: those who took on all the heavy Wagner roles and those who either avoided Wagner or chose only those Wagner parts which avoided having to sing above loud dense orchestration. Singers who chose to take on the big heavy Wagner parts became known as Wagnerian singers whereas those who did not were simply identified by music writers as dramatic performers. I hope that helps explain the origin of the term "Wagnerian" as a descriptive term. Ultimately repertoire choices are highly individual and there will always be casting discrepancies. Not every performer will fit neetly into a category. Best.4meter4 (talk) 00:03, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I know what a soprano lirico spinto is. But that was not my point. Maria Callas for example sung both dramatic, Wagnerian and lyric and coloratura roles. And she is not the only one who could or can do that. While it is true that there are certain voice types and opera roles corresponding to the classification given in this article, the idea that voice types are classified according to their power over a full orchestra (i.e. dramatic sopranos=big voice, lyric soprano=not so big) is erroneous.
Also, there are many misconceptions concerning Wagner and the human voice. When it comes to Wagnerian roles, most people tend to forget that Wagner's operas were meant to be performed in Bayreuth, whose acoustics and architecture favour and reinforce the human voice against the orchestra.
It would be better if the different voice types were defined according to their different qualities and tessitura, instead of their dynamics in relation to a full orchestra.Amadeus webern (talk) 15:35, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think that the issue of vocal weight or power can be dismissed so easily. It is a major concern in voice classification and no book on opera, the art of singing, or the history of vocal pedagogy will tell you differently. And, contrary to your statement, Callas was cited as an unusual singer for being able to jump around so much in her repertoire in many publications.4meter4 (talk) 20:58, 13 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]



The article has numerous references to 'middle C' and such like but never actually specifies a frequency. I came to this article curious about the frequency of a soprano (in Hz). Are there any objections to me giving the 'middle C', 'high D' type references a frequency? Mtpaley (talk) 23:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think that's unnecessary and unhelpful to the subject of "Soprano". The article already links to Scientific pitch notation which has a table of note frequencies covering 11 octaves and the linked term middle C has a similar table. From those tables it seems the answer you might be looking for is "middle C = 261.626 Hz, high D = 1174.7 Hz." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:50, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most common female voice type?


Baritone notes that this is the most common male voice type. Isn't soprano the most common female voice type? If so, then we should note that too. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 11:32, 26 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you have a source. The Baritone source is from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Encyclopedia. Prhartcom (talk) 13:46, 27 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A standard medical handbook should be a just about ideal source. I've added it.
I've frequently seen the claim on the web that mezzo-sopranos are the most common type, perhaps because they are in the middle just like baritones are in men, but this seemed dubious to me. I found the competing claim that sopranos are more common, and specifically lyric sopranos (or other light, non-coloratura sopranos), immediately more believable for some reason (experience probably). I asked a singer friend and she confirmed my hunch, referring to her teacher as source. True mezzo-sopranos (let alone contraltos) are rare. This encouraged me to look for a print source once again, and I finally found the right keywords. There appears to be considerable interest but also a lot of confusion about this issue, so I thought this was a useful point to add to the article. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:00, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Most common female voice type?


I don't think saying that lyric sopranos are the most common voice type is true nor particularly helpful without adding reputable sources. It is true that contraltos (as in women who are comfortable singing between approximately E3-C4 for long periods of time) are not common as well as the deepest mezzo-sopranos. However, I don't believe that the average woman can sing up to C6 (or higher) comfortably or musically, as is the requirement for the soprano voice type). Most women I have dealt with are perfectly content and comfortable to sing down to about Ab3 or G3, which again falls into the mezzo-soprano tessitura. I am not necessarily saying that this claim is factually incorrect; I just want to know how the author came to the the conclusion that the most common female voice type is a lyric soprano. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 04:07, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Experience of many years, perhaps? Possibly statistical investigations (more reliable than anecdata)? I don't know; you'll have to mail the authors and ask them yourself. Their addresses can be found on their personal webpages: Here is Arnold Aronson's and here is Diane Bless's. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 10:25, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Male sopranos"


This article is about the female voice type. The hatnote at the top of this article refers readers to the males. The disambiguation page handles the saxophone.

The following text discussing "male sopranos" used to appear at the top of the article before any discussion of females. It has now been removed from this article to keep the article focused on the primary definition of a soprano: the female soprano voice type. However, as it is sourced, would someone who has access to the sources like to integrate this into the sopranist article? Caution: this prose starts out encyclopedic then begins to go downhill a bit. Comments welcome. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 14:31, 19 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Typically, a "soprano" is a female singer but at times men who sing in the soprano vocal range using falsetto vocal production instead of the modal voice have been called a "male sopranos". Male sopranos are most commonly found in choral music in England. However, these men are usually called countertenors or sopranists. Referring to countertenors as "male sopranos" is somewhat controversial as these men do not produce sound in the same physiological way as female sopranos.[1] Michael Maniaci is able to sing the modal voice like a woman because his larynx did not fully develop during puberty.[2] Radu Marian is also able to sing in the modal voice because he never went through puberty, and is considered to be a "natural" castrato. In choral music, the term soprano refers to a vocal part or line and not a voice type. Male singers whose voices have not yet changed and are singing the soprano line are technically known as "trebles". The term "boy soprano" is often used as well, but this is just a colloquialism and not the correct term.[1]

Historically, women were not allowed to sing in the Church so the soprano roles were given to young boys and later to castrati—men whose larynges had been fixed in a pre-adolescent state through the process of castration.[3]


  1. ^ a b McKinney, James (1994). The Diagnosis and Correction of Vocal Faults. Genovex Music Group. ISBN 978-1-56593-940-0.
  2. ^ Times Article October 2007
  3. ^ Smith, Brenda (2005). Choral Pedagogy. Plural Publishing, Inc. ISBN 978-1-59756-043-6.
@Prhartcom: I share your concern, but lack expertise. I'm particularly uncertain about the difference between male sopranos and countertenors. Perhaps posting your comment at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera will yield more reaction. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 13:28, 21 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Good suggestion, done. But please call them "sopranist", there is no "male soprano". Prhartcom (talk) 13:35, 21 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hello @Prhartcom: and @Florian Blaschke:. I edited this article earlier as well mainly to split from the lead the males-detailing as I share your opinion that such specific-rarer reference should not take the focus of the subject. I also wasn't aware for the article sopranist with already detailing much of this-aspect content here.

With that, the article stands under the subject of the term "soprano" and was previously only hatnoted to differentiate between human and instrument voice-type. The reason I was making a more generalized lead definition (alongside moving this gender-crossing with historical perspective under its own chapter) is in order to correspond to the general concept of producing soprano, one way or another via this comparisons; with that add interest of an attached contra for the typical female singing coverage with its use in history (of how man performed this kind of singing instead of women), precisely on this article about soprano with its primary female focus, which sheds historical light on this focus as well. Although soprano is considered exceptional for the male body, males can also sing within this range categorization with falsetto as well as producing it within the natural boy's body system. For this I also find the definition "a type of classical female singing voice" to be lacking.

Therefore, I think it would be beneficial to leave a few sentences-chapter at the bottom of the article (also in contrast to my earlier placement of it at the top) and link from its text to the "sopranist" and "soprano saxophone" for further info (in addition to the article's top hatnotes). With that, for the lead definitions I'm in favor of something along the more flexible-line of: "Soprano is primarily a female/feminine singing voice type" with also briefly mentioning that males are able producing it under biological circumstances and that it uses for instruments and songs lines - in accordance to my proposed bottom-short chapter. I don't have expertise in this subject, my humble opinion is based on reading this male, boys and instruments content which deviates the term from solely a "female voice" and with regards to the article's subject. אומנות (talk) 16:17, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Hi אומנות; do you have sources? As you know, our humble opinions do not count on Wikipedia, only reliable sources. As editors, our only job is to state in our own words what the reliable sources say. If you have appropriate sources that state this, yes, it may be beneficial to place a small section at the bottom of this article. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 17:47, 2 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, my opinion was in regards to your reasoning that this content (which had few sources) should be moved to other related articles, also once it will be properly sourced; my opinion was for thinking you objecting having this material here altogether.
The males-children-instruments info had some sources here, as well as appears within those sopranist, Michael Maniaci and soprano saxophone articles, and included on dictionaries covering the term. This makes "soprano" to be overall and basically defined by a production of a specific vocal/sound range in humans/instruments, which makes it the most comprehensive and neutral way for our editorial job the way I see it; addressing the term from presenting this basic vocal range point, then attach the female gender as the primary reference of the term. This is what I wanted to make with my prior edit to the lead, in addition and as a summary to the historical and males context chapter. In regards to more and proper sourcing, I can try and look for more sources at the next days. אומנות (talk) 15:35, 3 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi אומנות, I agree that the Soprano article may have a section referring to this as you say. If you would like, you can place a new section into the bottom of the Soprano article with this information, removing it from this talk page, and perhaps also place this information into the Sopranist article. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 16:34, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think I would go so far as to say there is no "male soprano". After all, the term soprano was first applied to men, not women, in opera scores of the Baroque Era. Although we typically think of these roles today as castrati roles, the actual scores written by Monteverdi, Caccini, and their contemporaries labled these male parts 'soprano'. In fact contemporary republished scores of works like L'Orfeo will not use the term castrati in the list of roles but actually label them '(male) soprano' with the "(male)" as a modern editorial insert (see here). Further the term 'male soprano' is used widely in published material on the art of singing (see here). That said, I too prefer the term sopranist. However, several sources describe a sopranist or male soprano as a type of countertenor, so I am wondering if we shouldn't just redirect both male soprano and sopranist to that article. For example Margaret Olson on page 52 of Listening to Art Song: An Introduction (2015, Rowman & Littlefield) lists sopranist and mezzist as two subtypes of the countertenor voice type see here.
In response to אומנות, the primary usage of the term soprano is the highest female voice. Gender should be included in the lead sentence because that is clearly the primary use of the term today, and to indicate otherwise would be contrary to the vast majority of authoratative published references in this area of study. Other uses of the term, such as soprano saxophone or male soprano, can be addressed elsewhere in the article. Ultimately it may be beneficial to this article to add a history of the use of the term.4meter4 (talk) 20:51, 2 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Prhartcom and 4meter4. Prhartcom, I started working on phrasing a new chapter (from the previous material on the article) and found sources on the days after we talked, but wanted to keep compare them - mainly the issue of "countertanors"-conception as including "male sopranos", and "sopranists" verses "male sopranos" as it is a bit complex with varying views between different sources, as been also talked above. Also, following your ping, I saw the "In choral music" chapter and template addition to this article and read the preceding discussion on WikiProject Opera for the Alto-voice and the additional template as another classification for choir's characterization, so I want to verify this things before writting on the article.
4meter4, I formerly edited the lede to say: "A soprano is the highest vocal range of all voice types which primarily refers to classical female singing voice, with diversification to reference male falsetto vocal range, as well as a member of an instrumental family...". I understand that voice-types articles open with gender-reference as the primary identification, but a general description of "highest voice range" followed by "primarily refers to female voice type", still seems to pay respect to this nowadays primary reference, just after a general introduction paying respect to the term's spectrum. I think that at least the end of the lede should still summarize by mentioning other aspects of the term, if the article touches other terms of the soprano spectrum.
Following this discussion, the opera project discussion and article developments, I'm not sure now if it's better to put the content I worked on at the bottom of the article or to seperate some choir-info from that to appear under the "Choral music chapter". So I have decided to first introduce what I made on this talk page. I bring beneath the content with bracketted notes and references - for the references I added specific places directions and citations, as the sources have quite a lot of reading material. Here it is:
Typically, a "soprano" is a female singer, able to produce the range from middle C and higher by using the modal voice. Men are able to sing in the soprano range by using falsetto vocal production instead, as they do not produce sound in the same physiological way as female sopranos. In this falsetto technique reference they are called sopranists as a specific kind of the countertenor singing, by reaching the higher soprano notes in comparisson to the lower countertenor-charactarization notes range.(note a)[1][2][3] (reference "3" also point this, but to distinguish between "male soprano" and "countertenor").
However, the use of a modal voice to naturally produce the soprano range can also be achieved by young boys called trebles(note b) and by men whose voices have not changed as their larynges had been fixed in a pre-adolescent state through the process of castration, or men who are refered to as "natural castratos" as their larynges did not fully develop during puberty. Examples include Michael Maniaci and Radu Marian.
Historically, this gender crossing of soprano singing was conjoined with forbidding women to sing in the Church, as the soprano roles were given to young boys and later to castrato.[4] In choral music, the term soprano refers to a higher vocal part or line and not a voice type, which was also used to be sung by males.
a. The males alternative and different circumstances to sing in the soprano vocal range compared to females, has also led to call them "male sopranos" alongside the classical term "sopranists".[5]
b. The term "boy soprano" is often used as well for boys singing the higher parts in a choir, but this is just a colloquialism and not the correct term.[6]


  1. ^ [1] (First paragraph under sub-title "Male sopranos" in the article): "But the classification of singers like Jacek as male sopranos is controversial...Many believe that singers like Jacek are just counter tenors singing falsetto to hit the higher notes."
  2. ^ [2] (3rd paragraph under "I sing like a cat" in the article): "The soprano voice has never been exclusively female...Sopranists (the classical term for male sopranos) have limited themselves to an archaic repertoire: the baroque and early classical eras when roles were composed for their range."
  3. ^ [3] (Description above the video in the article / paragraph 7 under "Transcript" title): "Male sopranos are sometimes referred to as countertenors, but Crowe makes a distinction because he sings higher than a countertenor" / "Male sopranos are sometimes referred to as countertenors, but you make a distinction because you sing higher than a countertenor."
  4. ^ [4] (Under "Transcript" title - 5th and 6th paragraphs): "Boys were castrated between the ages of six and eight if they had promising voices, and then they hoped that the voice would mature into a castrato soprano. But most of them actually didn't end up with good voices..." (paragraph 6): "...But the church, because of course they didn't allow women to sing in the church, the church tolerated this."
  5. ^ [5] (3rd paragraph under "I sing like a cat" sub title): "The soprano voice has never been exclusively female...Sopranists (the classical term for male sopranos)..."
  6. ^ McKinney, James (1994). The Diagnosis and Correction of Vocal Faults. Genovex Music Group. ISBN 978-1-56593-940-0. This book-source was mentioned on the article before so I put it again for the "boy soprano" claim.
Please let me know if you think this male-soprano material is fine and what material can be seperated to appear under the "In choral music" chapter. Also, what you think in regards to point out the other references of the term at the end of the current lede. Thank you for your time to look at my material and my counselling questions and views.
אומנות (talk) 17:41, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
אומנות, I prefer the article's opening sentence as it currently is because it is a better reflection of the majority of published references on this subject, and is the definition than one immediately thinks of when hearing the term soprano (indeed this is the primary use of the term since the mid 18th century). I don't think a leading definition other than that is appropriate as it lends towards WP:UNDUE WEIGHT. I do think a use of the term "male soprano" could be mentioned further down in the lede, and then be addressed briefly in a historical context further down in the article in a history of the term soprano section. A detailed discussion of the term "male soprano" should be relegated to its own article since it really is a different, albeit related, topic.4meter4 (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agreed, we are not changing the lede or its opening sentence at all, אומנות, as I wrote that sentence last year to be consistent with the opening sentence to all voice type articles (keeping the "big picture"). Thinking about it further, and after reading the voice type article, I realise the soprano article should not include any reference to male voices at all, in any way whatsoever, as the referenced knowledge above discusses not sopranos but countertenors. In voice types, males and females always have their own definite types, and sopranos are strictly female. Countertenors, however, are always men and can (rarely) be equivalent to a soprano, which is what the above is discussing. So yes, your carefully written and referenced prose may be placed into that article immediately, if you wish, removing reference to males and females (as the context is already strictly males), and I hope you will do so. You may also wish to consider placing it into the sopranist (a sub-type of the countertenor) article. Looking at the countertenor article, it appears the best place is into the existing Terminology section. Looking at the sopranist article, it appears the best place is into the existing Controversy over the term male soprano section. I am especially pleased to see you obviously have access to the reliable sources. אומנות, thank-you for this and for mentioning the need to expand the choral music section. Wikipedia relies on you and 4meter4 and others who have this access to the reliable sources to maintain the content of the voice type articles. Prhartcom (talk) 21:45, 6 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your further views as well. I went through different specific voice-type articles earlier and now read the voice type article which refers vocal range by gender classification, for means as tessitura and other qualities, and not just factual vocal range (which therefore exclude the falsetto-soprano-countertenors). I also understand from 4meter4 comment, about the use of the term nowadays already from the 18th century for female singing voice, and gather the consistency to open voice type articles by gender reference.
My last comment was for mentioning the male sopranos somewhere in the continuation of the lead, as a summary for other uses of the term on other angles-chapters of the article, which 4meter4 discussed as well and agreed on - in regards to historical use. For this I highlight the historical replacement of females by castratos and trebles in church as very much relevant to the History chapter and in reference for the choral singing chapter - this gender-phenomenon occurred within this presentation-frame (which is also more inclusive for voice type definition compared to solo singer and opera roles) and with that sheds light on the nowadays accepted female singing term (as the focus of this article) compared to the past, on top of giving the angle of rare male-cases and castratos for the soprano spectrum as a complete picture about soprano-references. That is regardless of more in depth material on male sopranos on the "Countertenor" and "Sopranists" articles, that I can follow the advices of where to add such material there.
"Soprano" in reference to countertenor still varies from such different sourced views which seem to contribute to this article as well, if written briefly. Leaving the opening lead sentence and vocal range details in its opening is agreed, but I'm still with the view of a brief inclusion in this article (as I presented above, which can be further shortened if someone sees feat) under the history chapter, and that the lead needs to point out in its continuation the term male sopranos and references to the historical use of the term. אומנות (talk) 16:20, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If you are saying the reliable sources clearly state that males could at one time in history be considered sopranos, then in that case I concur, and will always bow to whatever the reliable sources say. To clarify my position on all this, I am approaching this simply as an editor who wishes to bring a big-picture consistency and good organizational structure to the voice type articles. I am not well versed in the intricate historical and contemporary details nor do I have the library of sources: for this I rely on you and 4meter4 and others, and I hope you will rely on me for the attributes I mention about myself that I hope are helpful. As you may have noticed, since I wrote my last comment I brought even more consistent structure to the voice type articles including this one, inserting a previously missing History section as it exists in other voice type articles. Therefore, I look forward to some expertly written and well-cited prose in this section, not only about males of course, but mostly about females in order to keep the proper WP:WEIGHT, and not only in this article but in the other voice type articles you wish to contribute to. Cheers. Prhartcom (talk) 16:35, 9 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Prhartcom, sorry for the bit late reply, I kept research and allocate more sources, and thinking how to incorporate other views of the term under the article's current chapter-division. In relation to this, I understand and appreciate the way you designed this article, along with the impressive organizational work you made for the consistency of voice type articles. In regards to male sopranos, I didn't know at first if they were identified as the classic definition of the "soprano" term at some point in history (as before the prominence of female-voice-classification); what I meant was about the importance of explaining other ways (mostly of males) to produce the "soprano" range in this article, with rare cases of also realizing more soprano qualities in their singing. With that, after 4meter4 info about the term referring to males at first, I also now found more sources to this, so I can add this to the history section in combination with bits of biological conditions of the male soprano-singing. I will work on this some more, regardless of course if someone else will start to fill the chapters before. Greets. אומנות (talk) 09:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

New content in History section


User:GoldenGuy23, thank-you for adding content to the History section; it is needed. I notice you provided no verifiability of any kind when you added this new content. Can you please tell us if this information came from yourself? Otherwise can you please provide all the usual details of the reliable source? If there's no reliable source the content needs to be removed. I am available if you need help; just let me know below or at my talk page. Best, Prhartcom (talk) 01:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

+1, especially for a sweeping statement like "Soprano opera singers usually get the leading female (or Trouser) roles in operas." That'll surprise many singers of Rossini or Carmen, and the count in the article Breeches role seems to favour mezzos 43–32 over sopranos, with 14 contraltos. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 00:30, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
User: Prhartcom, to answer your question, I'm trying to see how to add sources & citations to the history section of the Soprano (voice type) web page, as some of those statements are based on actual articles.
User:Michael Bednarek, I was just saying how most of the leading roles in operas usually go to Sopranos. Women of lower voice types (Contraltos & Mezzos) do have leading roles in operas such as Carmen, Rosina from the Barber of Seville, Angelina (Cinderella) from La Cenerentrola, & Hansel from Hansel & Gretel, just to name a few. However, Contraltos & Mezzos hey usually play secondary roles (such as maids, mothers, witches, etc.) while the Soprano plays the main character. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GoldenGuy23 (talkcontribs) 21:24, 20 April 2016‎
(GoldenGuy23, please sign your contributions.) – So you maintain that sopranos get the leading trouser roles? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:02, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
GoldenGuy23, I have deleted the trouser paragraph as unreferenced generalization. Sorry, but we need to delete all of the History section now actually, since it, too, is unreferenced. All Wikipedia articles must cite their sources, specifying which books, journals, and news articles the editor read to get the knowledge summarized in the article. Note that the editor must contribute no original research; meaning the editor cannot write about things they themselves know; that is not allowed. Instead, the editor can only write what they read in reliable sources. To meet verifiability, they then document where the knowledge originally came from. Here is a video showing the basics of Wikipedia's verifiability policy. Now, if you have the sources, a helpful shortcut to writing the cited reference is this tool; try it. I'm here to answer any question; we really need an accurate and well-written History of the Soprano. Best, Prhartcom (talk) 05:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Note to us all: The History section could be better sourced. I hope someone adds reference to books that cover the history of the soprano voice type. Prhartcom (talk) 16:14, 23 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

GoldenGuy23, I don't think you've quite got the hang of it yet. I explicitly told you that you cannot add material to the encyclopedia without an accompanying reference to a reliable source. And please don't just provide yet another link to Encyclopedia Britannica. Read the policies I have linked and understand how we do things here, leave any questions you have below, then please try again. Prhartcom (talk) 00:21, 24 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The History section is looking much better. All other voice type articles have a History section and I added the heading title and expansion tag awhile ago while doing large, structural edits to all voice type articles, hoping someone would step up and provide content research on the history of this voice type. I am pleased that this has been adequately done for now and hope others will contribute to it also. Best, Prhartcom (talk) 14:56, 26 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Potential edit warring on the voice types articles


See Talk:Bass_(voice_type)#Potential edit warring on the voice types articles. Kuulopuhe (talk) 13:35, 30 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]